That was Joy Division's role // canavarlar

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Tony Wilson faces Poptones.co.uk's QUESTION OF DOOM about his new
record label Red Cellar, New Order, Joy Division, Grime, Raw-T, Hacienda,
Happy Mondays, Factory, Twenty Four Hour Party People and the new
projected film about Ian Curtis

Do you regret selling the Hacienda into flat conversions?

No. The Hacienda before it ended was fifteen years of fucking financial
nightmares. We lost millions on the place. When New Order were recording
in Real World Studios I would be going down there every week to have a
fucking crisis meeting about the Hacienda. It got to the point where Barney
and I were in a meeting and I said ‘‘Barney, come one, it's been wonderful;
if I there was a button that would make the Hacienda disappear - what
would you do?'. And he said - ‘‘Show me the fucking button, Tony'. The
Hacienda cost most of us a fortune. I agree that it is iconic and had its
place for rock'n'roll and dance culture but everything has its time and place.

Your new record label is called Red Cellar - yet the last one was called
Factory 2. Why did you get rid of the Factory association?

My partner asked me if I minded if we didn't use the Factory name this time-
like Factory 2. I told him: ‘‘I wasn't bothered'. So he came up with Red
Cellars- which was fine and even finer when he explained he took it from
the same paragraph that Rob Gretton got the name Hacienda from - so I
rather liked that connection.

There are rumours that you are a supporter of the grime genre.

No; I don't understand all those names; it's just that I came across a
band -sorry, crew - that I loved and I am utterly entranced. Raw-T are
genius. They are what I suppose you now call a grime act. Poetry and
beats; the essence of rock and roll. I signed them to Red Cellars in March
and we've just finished the first album.

You played key roles in emerging youth cults of post-punk, acid house,
Happy Mondays skunk-rock –– it makes perfect sense to me that you are
now supporting grime. You are always five years ahead of your time.

Really? I am amazed that I am.Or that you think so. Last November my
partner, Yvette, said two things - I am getting you a dog for Christmas and
you have to sign Raw-T to your label. And she was right about Raw-T. My
son really got the both of us into this grime thing. He's a Junglist of long
standing. Me, I always hated English kids doing hip-hop. It lacked
authenticity: putting on fake American accents and such. But what this new
generation is doing is fantastic. It is the authentic voice of black British
Youth, to quote Sefton who co-produced the Raw-T album at Phuture
Lounge in Ancoats. It is simply genius and Raw-T are, to my mind, little
geniuses. You know in every band there is somebody that bores-the-fuck-
out-of-you? In Raw-T there is no luggage. No Joe's.

I would like to plead my case as someone who has tried with black music.
On Factory, Exodus, 52nd Street, Marcel King etc. And before that. I
remember when I heard the Furious Five. When I was in New York back in
1980 or 81, Geoff Travis (Rough Trade) invited me over to Robert
Christgau's (NYC Village Voice based writer) house and he played the
Furious Five. It was this completely new music out of Brooklyn. The next
week I was back in England. When I got back to the Factory Flat - I started
to ring around for the Furious Five's manager. They were managed out of a
record shop in Harlem. I finally got through and said that I wanted to sign
the Furious Five to Factory - he told me ‘‘Fuck off, Whitey' and hung up. But
I tried.

What are your plans for Red Cellars?

To quote the late Rob Gretton on Factory; "I just put out some records
with mi mates." Can't say it any better than that. We've got the backing
and we've got the basics of a label in place. I was just waiting for the acts
to come. I mean, Jesus, some people sign ten bands but what is the point
of that? If it took me five years to find an act to fall in love with I would
have waited. I was waiting for the act that would make me want to sign
them like Joy Division, New Order and Happy Mondays. Raw-T holds that
same power. A label is nothing without brilliant artists.

What happened with Factory 2?

London Records. As much as I love the owner of London Records and as
much as I think he is completely charming and I really enjoy his friendship;
I was always amazed that the record label was the complete opposite of
its boss. In my time, I found London Records was as charmless and dumb
as you could be. But to be fair they probably thought the same about me.

How did you and Alan McGee become to be enemies? What happened?

We are friends, now. What happened was that my partner, Yvette, wanted
to start In The City. I said fine, I will take you to meet some of London's big
players - I took her to see Maurice Oberstein and Alan McGee. She met
them both and everyone was very friendly. However, Alan would never
come to In the City. So I asked my friend Chas, manager of Teenage
Fanclub why Alan would never participate with "In the City". Alan
said: "What, me, contribute to fucking Wilson's pension fund". I thought
there - right you are a shit. But we are over that and we are now friends
and he did Glasgow for us and we are certainly polite with each other now.

You are without-a-doubt a key playing in the post-punk era. What are your
feelings about post-punk?

Punk had this great three-chord fuck you energy about it. It rescued the
legacy of rock and roll. But that was it. Where was it to go. Barney summed
it up in an interview in the early 90's ; "All punk could really express was
fuck you; sooner or later someone was going to use the energy and
simplicity of punk to express more complex emotions." From "Fuck you" to
I'm fucked" I call it. That was Joy Division's role.

Do you think Joy Division could hold as much relevancy in 2004 as it they
did in 1978?

Of course.

I could never work out my artistic instincts on relevancy. I mean, when I
was reviewing for my university paper I gave Neil Young's Harvest a bad
review. Two months later I was upset and felt terrible - to be honest the
album was a saccharine piece of shit but it was a Neil Young album. I
should not have given a bad review to a Neil Young album. Still regret that.
And in 1974 and 1975 I was big upping a little known songwriter called
Bruce Springsteen to just about anybody who would hear me. Used to get
called Bruce ion the Stretford End.

And in 1977 when I was putting bands on the television. And all the 87
bands that I put on television went on to become famous - people like Elvis
Costello and the like. But the real achievement was not putting on the
other hundreds of crap bands that people wanted me to put on - like the
dire punk of 999 or Bethnal and so on. And so I wondered how having
made that one wrong move on Neil Young, how come my art judgement
stuff was on a roll.

And in 1978, I went to a gig in Manchester. Every Manchester band was
playing. And there was a band called Joy Division who looked like they
didn't even want to be up on the stage playing. They had to be up there.
They had no choice They had to play. They were that driven. And I was
mesmerised. I had to work with them. Any band who is that driven by their
art will succeed. I had no choice but to work with them. It defined what
criteria I was using and according to such criteria Joy Division would
definitely hold relevancy in 2004.

The only other band that I could see nowadays coming out of Manchester
with that same sort of intensity right now is either the Longcut or Raw-T.
I'd love to work with the Longcut but they already did their single deal with
Deltasonic. And I've got Raw-T. So I'm very very happy.

Why do you think that the Happy Mondays are criminally underappreciated?

Yes, criminally. They did what all great influential bands do, combine black
with white. Few people really appreciate the Mondays. You are right - they
are completely underrated. What a great band. Shaun is England's
greatest poet. But then I'm thought stupid for thinking that; "Give me an
Uzi, and someone to use it, who smiles."

The thing is with the Happy Monday is Shaun never did himself any favours
by doing things such as posing in a porno magazine in a hot tub with three
naked ugly-as-fuck models. This week I was with Shaun and a journalist
from the Times. I said that the Happy Mondays were genius and one of
Britain's greatest rock'n'roll bands and Shaun said: ‘‘Thanks for the
compliment Tony but that is a little over-the-top'. And the Times journalist
was looking askance at Shaun. Actually he agreed with me. Shaun is a
genius but like I said he is his own worst enemy. I was listening to
Bummed just yesterday and it is full-on brilliance. And remember I am
never wrong.

What about the Spacemonkeys?

Come on, I mean, I had the Spacemonkeys, I never said that they were
great or genius. I said that there were a good band and they were. Like
every great second division band they had some wonderful songs, but also
an arrogance worse than first division bands that always destroys bands
like that.

What do you think will be the next revolution in Manchester rock?

I was waiting for a new rock revolution to come out of Manchester. I was
waiting for a Manchester nu-metal band who could do it with wit, irony and
power. But I found myself having to look to the Welsh Valleys instead. Lost
Prophets are genius. And Funeral for a Friend. But not Manchester and not
mine. RawT is clearly something important and powerful but I'm not clever
enough to know where it will lead. By the way, despite flattering questions
I never led anyone anywhere, it's my job to follow, shouting support, and
then analysing and explaining to people. And being shat on for being a big
mouth.

A lot of people wanted to know this one question but I am not sure if I
want to ask it. It's a bit tasteless.

Go on.

Were you happy when Ian Curtis died because it made you a lot of money?

That's a great myth. Ian died on a Saturday. A factory friend was in our
offices that Friday amazed at the response that the upcoming release of
Love Will Tear Us Apart was getting from Record Store Managers who he
was visiting that week. They were selling out of their first orders and re-
ordering. People were already obsessing over Joy Division at that point.
The single Transmission and the album Unknown Pleasures had spread
through the young of Britain and an avalanche was ready to be triggered.
The release of the record was going to do that. Not Ian's death. They were
set to be massive right before he died. So in fact, Ian dying, probably did
the reverse of your tasteless question. Imagine what we could have done
with the assistance of the greatest lead singer of his generation.

Were you happy that Steve Coogan played you in the story of your life in
Twenty Four Hour Party People?

I was flattered. He is one of Britain's top stars. And he is a friend. Though I
must say that he played a lot nicer version of me. And made me look like
more of a fool than I really am. People who know me and seen the film
wondered where the absolute complete twat side of me was on the
screen. If I am pissed off I am a complete cunt. Bruce Mitchell of the Durutti
Column describes it as my "Rhino coming our of Thicket mode." But that
being said I thought it was a brilliant movie. Brilliant because people in the
film business always, but always, fuck up when they do films about music.
And this one did not. If people are going to leave that film and discover the
music of Happy Monday, Joy Division or New Order I will be a happy man.

What about the new projected film about the life of Ian Curtis?

I don't think it could be as good as the 24 Hour Party People effort.
However, saying that, the production people came around to see Debbie
Curtis and Natalie, Ian's daughter. They went through the plans for their
film and didn't leave until both Debbie and Natalie were happy with it and
had given the production their blessing. I wish them luck. And I'm happy to
help is required. Basically, if the film comes out and ten more people listen
to Joy Division then that would make me a happy man.

Thanks Tony Wilson for answering Poptones.co.uk's QUESTIONS OF DOOM.
If you say that you had not - YOU HAVE LIED!